Curse

Coloneh · Dec 17, 2007, 05:00 AM // 05:00

no superior runes, not worth it.

needs moar parasitic bond, and probably some energy managment. try using auspicious incantation on your echoes version of SS with a few points in inspiration.
could lose desecrate and enfeebling blood for those two.

The Riven · Dec 17, 2007, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

no superior runes, not worth it.

needs moar parasitic bond, and probably some energy managment.

Seriously, was that sarcasm?

Use sup runes. Kill things. SR will keep your energy toped up.

upier · Dec 17, 2007, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Minor runes make an difference when playing PvP or when playing through PvE like one is playing PvP, but for normal PvE play, the deficit of 75 hit points on a debuffer/nuker isn't that insane.

I never understood people who brought sub-par builds and configurations that do little damage just to feel supposedly elite since "I'm playing just like the big PvP boys do!"

Of course the deficit of 75 hp while farming isn't that bad. You're there to kill stuff.
And that is what you are doing when playing what you consider "normal PvE". One is farming PvE. One is exploiting the stupidity of the foes to get though the game. One isn't getting better at the game - one just keep on doing the same thing - send in the "tank" - wait for everyone to focus on him - then move to the edge of the aggro bubble - and because the monsters are too stupid you can nuke away!
So yeah - if one farms PvE - the sup runes are completely doable!
But in that case - the rune wouldn't have much to do with me not wanting someone in my team (it would be a just a plus to kick you out sooner!). I'd not want them because because they still play like a beginner.

Ohh and those sub-par builds and configurations - mostly start with having low hp! When things are fine - the low/high hp won't be an issue. Sure the damage one will do will be greater with a sup rune - but there are 8 people in your party. And you are trading off carrying their weight when things aren't an issue with them carrying YOUR weight when things do go wrong!
It's because one isn't working as good in situations when that is required the most that the sup runes are an issue.

Moloch Vein · Dec 17, 2007, 10:45 AM // 10:45

If you are not exploiting the stupidity of the foes in PvE, regardless of which configuration you are playing, you are the sucker. That is the entire point of PvE play - you are fighting monsters with a serious IQ deficiency that are somewhat compensated for this by being ridiculously overpowered as for their raw punch.

No matter if you are playing a tank-nuker-healer trinity or if you are playing an irregular configuration with no fixed line roles, this will always be the case in PvE.

A person does not play like a "beginner" in PvE because he does not play it like PvP. If anything, the reverse would be true.

upier · Dec 17, 2007, 12:34 PM // 12:34

My apologies - I should have used "to rely" (instead of exploit!) in there somewhere.
The problem is when people rely on the stupidity. And this is shown with the selection of superior runes.
Stuff happens. Even in PvE. And it's the people who rely on certain stuff happening (or not) - that suffer the most.
And why would I want such people in my team?

The Riven · Dec 17, 2007, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

My apologies - I should have used "to rely" (instead of exploit!) in there somewhere.
The problem is when people rely on the stupidity. And this is shown with the selection of superior runes.
Stuff happens. Even in PvE. And it's the people who rely on certain stuff happening (or not) - that suffer the most.
And why would I want such people in my team?

Do you honestly belive what you are typing or is this just some kind of odd trolling?

Moloch Vein · Dec 17, 2007, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

My apologies - I should have used "to rely" (instead of exploit!) in there somewhere.
The problem is when people rely on the stupidity. And this is shown with the selection of superior runes.
Stuff happens. Even in PvE. And it's the people who rely on certain stuff happening (or not) - that suffer the most.

For necromancers in PvE in general, some stuff also happens when:

A: The minion wall is reduced by 50% strength and it breaks up.
B: The hexer doesn't have sufficient strength to take people down according to speed.
C: The player does not have enough attribute points to successfully fill a secondary support role for the team.

Quote:

And why would I want such people in my team?

Because it's the monk with those extra seconds of Aegis, the nuker with those extra points of damage, the warder with those extra points of armor in his wards, and the spirit supporter with those extra hit points on his Shelter and Union, that will help keep you alive so that you can run at the first sign of trouble.

upier · Dec 17, 2007, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

For necromancers in PvE in general, some stuff also happens when:

A: The minion wall is reduced by 50% strength and it breaks up.
B: The hexer doesn't have sufficient strength to take people down according to speed.
C: The player does not have enough attribute points to successfully fill a secondary support role for the team.
Because it's the monk with those extra seconds of Aegis, the nuker with those extra points of damage, the warder with those extra points of armor in his wards, and the spirit supporter with those extra hit points on his Shelter and Union, that will help keep you alive so that you can run at the first sign of trouble.

A. Why would I use minions (outside of places which are so easy that builds pretty much don't matter) if cursers are superior?
B. Why should it be the hexers job to take down foes - rather then assist in taking them down?
C. Since when is 10ish (or the closest breakpoint) not enough to fill that secondary role?
Why would I use nukers for damage (once again - outside of places which are so easy that builds pretty much don't matter)?
Shelter/Union. This does not even deserve a question.
And are you seriously suggesting that a monk with a superior rune is a better choice then one without?

And do you think that with those kind of suggestions - the idea of "superiors are good" is becoming more credible?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Riven

Do you honestly believe what you are typing or is this just some kind of odd trolling?

Yeah I do believe it.
Any you know why?
Because I am actually good at PvE.

Moloch Vein · Dec 17, 2007, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

A. Why would I use minions (outside of places which are so easy that builds pretty much don't matter) if cursers are superior?

I was starting with the assumption "if you did use minions". And, if you do use a second (or even a third! the heresy!) necromancer, the MM is worth every bit of his salt.

Quote:

B. Why should it be the hexers job to take down foes - rather then assist in taking them down?

Because that is what a proper necromancer curser manages to do in PvE. He kills enemies. I'm sorry if you've never seen it happen, trust me, it can.

Quote:

C. Since when is 10ish (or the closest breakpoint) not enough to fill that secondary role?

Depends on what you mean by "enough". I frequently find a specced 11 or 12 in Earth Magic to be quite handy.

Quote:

Why would I use nukers for damage (once again - outside of places which are so easy that builds pretty much don't matter)?

Is this a joke? Have you heard about the concept of PvE mobs?

Quote:

Shelter/Union. This does not even deserve a question.

I assure you proper use of these spirits is still a very strong force in PvE.

Quote:

And are you seriously suggesting that a monk with a superior rune is a better choice then one without?

Sometimes. Sometimes not. I wouldn't run it on an Infuse Health monk. In many instances it's not worth it because the extra benefit isn't enough.

Seriously, point me to a place that isn't "so easy that builds don't matter". I'm interested in seeing an area that would make me revise my position that damage and superior protection is a good thing.

Asha Rai · Dec 17, 2007, 02:15 PM // 14:15

95% of PVE is very easy when you know what you are doing, and loosing 75 hp doesn't change that fact. If you're dieing, the problem isn't the 75 hp. I think 450 or so hp is plenty. If you start getting dp though, it may be time to switch headpieces for a while.

The only time I'd want to max my hp is if I was a melee class, or playing my survivor.

Moloch Vein · Dec 17, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

I'm sorry but I understand we have derailed this thread completely. I will try to restrain myself from posting unless something important shows up.

Peace.

System_Crush · Dec 17, 2007, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And are you seriously suggesting that a monk with a superior rune is a better choice then one without?

Well if it weren't wouldn't the superior protection&healing rune cost 200 gold instead of 1&1.2 plat at the rune trader?
Fact is, especially in PvE a prot + healing hybrid is still the most effective; And with the nerfs here and there too protection prayers because of 55hp monks, it really pays to get a good bonus in it, this saves your team and (there by) you more health than it loses you.

But for the sake of the wallet, I advise to use a superior healing instead; it's around 200 gold cheaper than the protection, and use a protection +1 and major protection rune instead.

Also the efficiently of a superior rune is entirely dependent on your skill set, there are tons of builds which do not gain more of a benefit from 2 more skill points than form 75 more health, the same is true for the reverse.

However, in many cases there is a golden middle way, where a major rune will offer the perfect solution, but I know at least myself is am narrow sighted to see that in plenty of those cases.

As the original post is about an SS build, I'd say a superior rune is not needed for curses(miner/major + headgear will do) it won't kill you to take one though, but will require more skill with [skill=text]Parasitic Bond[/skill] as that isn't just a cover hex, with some 'premonition' its also a great self heal.
Getting a superior rune for [skill=text]Awaken the Blood[/skill] only is stupid and out of the question entirely.
A minor soul reaping should be enough, but I like taking a superior anyway just because I am cruddy with [skill=text]Signet of Lost Souls[/skill] and not running out of energy is more important to me that having 75 extra health.

Draginvry · Dec 17, 2007, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Shelter/Union. This does not even deserve a question.

What's with the spirit hate? Some of us have Communing rits, you know.

System_Crush · Dec 17, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draginvry

What's with the spirit hate? Some of us have Communing rits, you know.

True, yet I still prefer [skill=text]Disenchantment[/skill] and [skill=text]Dissonance[/skill], as spawning power is nice, but I don't want to use spirits that won't last 4 seconds without me having at least 13 in it making them last 5 or 6. It's such a waste of those 5 seconds you spend casting them.

[EDIT]
But in contrast to that, using them together with [skill=text]Assassin's Promise[/skill] in a well coordinated HM team, does have a good function. However even in a greatly coordinated team just for PvE with teamspeak and synched builds only happened to me once.

Rexion · Dec 17, 2007, 08:29 PM // 20:29

ok, so this has turned into a debate. please stop. this thread was here to help me not debate on superior runes. i don't care what you think about me having them, so stop debating on it.

no please don't say anything unless it will help fix up my build. if you can't do this, i'll have to ask a moderator to close this because it is going against what i've asked for.

Rexion

Moloch Vein · Dec 17, 2007, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Then it can be closed, because you know everything you need to know by now.

horseradish · Dec 17, 2007, 09:52 PM // 21:52

What runes and insignias are you using anyways, Rexion?

(Besides the attribute ones)

Rexion · Dec 17, 2007, 11:01 PM // 23:01

probably a superior vigor on one. then attune on the rest. radiants won't hurt either?

horseradish · Dec 18, 2007, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Superior Vigor wow. Well it definitely helps for the health lost.

+energy is great; though I find Soul Reaping to be excellent energy management on it's own, you do have a very expensive skill bar. How's it treating you?

Rexion · Dec 18, 2007, 03:05 AM // 03:05

hehe
notice my monks name... notice that he has beaten prophicies... notice he has hard mode... notice he can HM Hulkingstone Solo Farm

point made there